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In 2002, I wrote a critical account [indexed at TD/TNC 71.480] in this journal of the Performance and Innovation Unit's analysis of workforce development and the policy which has since emanated from it. Lloyd and Payne [article indexed at TD/TNC 76.54], again in this journal, criticized that account for both claiming too much in terms of progress made and for saying too little about what policies are needed to usher in a demand-led system. In this rejoinder, the areas of agreement and disagreement between us are explored and this exploration reveals that we are in favour of radically different routes out of the low skills equilibrium. What is at stake is not a routine argument between academics, but a genuine dispute about how the UK could become a high skills society.